MIDDLE AGEish
Authentically and unapologetically keeping it real, discussing all things Middle Age (ish), when metabolism slows and confidence grows. Middle Age(ish): A time of transition from dreaming of who we will grow up to be and looking at the legacy we will leave behind. Listen to this podcast and join the hosts of Middle Age(ish) as they sit around with a glass of wine to discuss all things related to middle age with some amazing guests!
MIDDLE AGEish
The Subtle Art of Dealing with Annoying People (and Introspection) with Ilene Marcus
Are you dealing with annoying people in your life? Ilene Marcus, celebrated author of "Managing Annoying People," joins us for a candid conversation on turning the mirror inwards to deal with the daily grind of office irritants. We navigate the complexities of reflecting the behavior you desire to see, the distinct coaching needs of men and women in the workspace, and fostering self-awareness for growth. Ilene's seasoned perspective is a guiding light for anyone seeking to create a more harmonious work environment by first mastering the art of self-management.
Communication is a dance, and sometimes we step on toes—especially in the workplace. This episode uncovers the transformative power of reflective listening and the careful choreography of thoughtful conversation. Relive with us a personal tale that escalated into an HR dilemma, underscoring the importance of measured responses. You'll also discover the 'secret smile' among other tactics to keep your cool and collect wisdom amidst dialogue. Moreover, we open up about our approach as hosts, sharing our philosophy of short, sharp interventions to remedy entrenched corporate challenges.
Lastly, the generational chasm in workplace philosophy comes under the microscope as we contrast the mindset of millennials with that of baby boomers. Through Ilene's lens, we delve into personal habits that breed annoyance, such as excessive talking, the need for explanation over assertion, and the recognition of our historical hysterical triggers. Embracing the journey of self-improvement and mindfulness, we uncover how these efforts not only polish our daily interactions but also make space for what's sincerely significant in our lives.
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Welcome to the Middle Age-ish Podcast, authentically and unapologetically keeping it real, discussing all things Middle Age-ish, a time when metabolism slows and confidence grows. Join fashion and fitness entrepreneur Ashley Badowski, former Celtic woman and founder of the Lisa Kelly Voice Academy. Lisa Kelly, licensed psychologist and mental health expert, dr Pam Wright and highly sought after cosmetic injector and board certified nurse practitioner, tricia Kennedy-Roman.
Speaker 2:Join your hosts on the journey of Middle Age-ish. Hello everyone and welcome to another episode of Middle Age-ish'm. Lisa Kelly and I'm joined tonight by Trisha Kennedy-Roman and Dr Pam Wright. We're actually missing Miss Ashley today because her AC is broken so she had to get it fixed, but we are so excited to welcome our guest this evening, eileen Marcus. She's a much sought after speaker with helpful advice for anyone stuck in their everyday climb, and she is also the author of Managing Annoying People and a blogger for Sixty and Me. You are very welcome to our show this evening, miss Eileen. We're delighted to have you. I love the name of that book.
Speaker 3:Yes, You'll have to tell us all about how to deal with annoying people. I need this in my life.
Speaker 4:Yes, thanks for having me Very excited to be here.
Speaker 2:So tell us about your book, Ali. I mean, I'm sure we could all write plenty of things about annoying people, but managing them seems to be a bit hard for most people.
Speaker 4:Well, let me start with it's so annoying that Ashley is not here, because I really connected with her, so shout out to Ashley B for reaching out and all that. So I wrote this book because it's a handbook on how to manage me. I was annoying. I was that superstar who got it done, who everybody turned to, that was promoting through the ranks, but boy, was I a handful. I wanted your time, I wanted your information, I wanted more resources, I wanted that office, I wanted it this way, and that's a lot for a boss to handle. Especially when I started managing my own team and oversaw about 10,000 people, I realized I am surrounded by a team of mini-me's and they're driving me crazy. And the book was born, basically, and it really talks about how to find peace and serenity and watch our own behaviors so that we can show up that way and be more of a reflection of who we want the others to be. So it's really managing others is about managing yourself.
Speaker 5:Yeah, it reminds me. I just saw a quote that said be the person that you want to work with, and I guess that that's kind of what you're saying there with that. Yes.
Speaker 4:You know, a lot of CEOs invited me into their inner sanctum, right into their team meetings, to meet with them and see why they're not getting what they want from their staff. And time after time I had to turn around and say look at what you're giving. You're getting upset, You're rolling your eyes, You're on your phone. How do you expect your staff to be present or honest with you when that's not what you're doing? And there's a real subtle twist here when you think you're building your team because there's one person that's annoying or doesn't dress right or you know you all think is crazy and you are kind of, you know, bonding with everybody else over, that that switches on you. There becomes a point there where everybody says wait a minute, wait a minute, that could be me in the future, and then everything falls apart. So it's really important that you be the kind of person that you want people to work with, that, if your values are integrity and honesty and openness and collaboration, that that's what you show and you stay present for your staff.
Speaker 2:That's super important, do you find when you're. When you're talking about this, though, do you approach it differently if it's a man or a woman, because I kind of feel sometimes that if a woman is a go-getter, and a woman wants things done and wants everything, then she's considered annoying or bossy, whereas we don't a doubt that does exist.
Speaker 4:But I always come at it when I coach people or I talked well when I coach them. Definitely very different With women it's a lot about. I know you're not being annoying, but this is what they hear, this is what they see, this is what they're saying. So I was in a meeting recently where a woman said I have given him that folder and that form right. She's an administrator.
Speaker 4:One of the department heads needed to fill something out and she said I have given it to him five times here in the emails. Here's some times I gave them. Here's what I've done. And I looked at her and I said but he's saying he doesn't have it and what he needs is your help. So saying you gave it to him, that's not what he's hearing. What he's hearing is I didn't get any help. You emailed it to me and you wiped your hands of it. Might be a little bit of a different conversation with a guy. With a guy it might be. Did you go over and sit with him? What did you do? I don't have to deal so much with what they're thinking about you.
Speaker 3:I just have to tell the man what he should go do you know I'm a psychologist and a lot of times working with people like they see other people's, I guess like annoying habits or bad habits, but getting them to be introspective and look at their own things can be really difficult. So how do you go about helping them to do that? Because you're right, I mean, everyone has their own quirks and annoying tendencies and things. How do you get them to like dial into that? How do you get them to like dial into that.
Speaker 4:Well, I have a tagline that says you'll laugh, you'll cringe, you'll change when you see your own behavior sometimes, or you see it in someone else. That's what really gets you going. I say that all the way. You know I'm into Shakespeare. These days All the world's a stage, but all the world is a mirror and either we have what we see we're like, we like that that's us, or we don't like it.
Speaker 4:So, getting people to look at themselves about how others might perceive themselves, be open to the possibility Simple tricks. Right, it's the pointed finger. You point the finger at that person. You got three back at you. Any way you can get someone to think about. Certainly, what might I be doing? I'm not saying for me that the other person is not annoying. I'm not telling you that you're not right about what they're doing and they didn't do their job and they should be doing it better. But as long as they're moral, ethical and competent, then it's incumbent on you especially nowadays with Zoom and all the different modes of communication it's really incumbent on you to say how can I best get my message across? What can I change? So my entire job is basically getting people to see their BS, their blind spots, the things they don't see.
Speaker 2:I love that. I love that too. I love that too. I'd love to be able to do that. I'd love to be able to do that with myself because, again, I work for myself, so I don't have to worry about annoying too many people, but it's just when you're dealing. I deal with kids every day, so even trying to get them to notice what they're doing, their behavior, and try and stop it in their tracks now is like it's something gosh I struggle with and I get very impatient at times.
Speaker 5:One thing I've noticed before is just like when I might see a parent playing on their phone instead of playing with, you know, a painted ginger kid, and I think, oh my gosh, that looks horrible. But I've done that, you know. So it's very easy to look at other people you know and think, wow, they really snapped at their husband and that was really awful. Well, I've done that, you know. So I think it's much easier to look at someone else and see when they're doing wrong than it is yourself. So I think that introspect is really important. I call that one.
Speaker 4:Goldilocksing right. We all know the story about Goldilocks and the three bears, do we? I mean, other generations don't know it, but Goldilocks goes into this house. She's tired. She stumbles upon a house, you know she wants to porridge. The big bowl is too hot. The other bowl is too cold. The little bowl, you know. The middle bowl is just right. Bed too soft, too hard, just right.
Speaker 4:And we all think about, like let's right size our behavior right, because no one is perfect all the time. We all get annoyed, we all have a bad day. We're human, we all, you know, have. I mean, even the computer is human. Sometimes it doesn't do what you want it to do, it hiccups. So we have to forgive ourselves that. So we all want to right size. But why I call it Goldilocksing? Is, as soon as you are looking at someone else's behavior and judging them, we forget that Goldilocks was trespassing. She was in someone else's house. She broke and entered. We don't want to be trespassers, we don't want them doing it to us. So do you want someone eating your porridge? Do you want someone else taking your inventory? So I say notice your BS and do not trespass into someone else's area. Stay away. Don't Goldilocks it. Find the right size, but do not cross that boundary which is not yours, when I work with adolescents.
Speaker 3:sometimes parents will tell me like, oh, they have these tantrums and it's like horrible. And I'm like, oh, ok, well, I don't know, but like film them and like let's see. And as soon as they go to film if it's a kid or an adolescent, they freak out like they don't want to be filmed at all, because I mean, they know, obviously right, like this is going to look really, really bad for my therapist or my teacher or whoever. And so I think that if we had cameras around us 24-7 to see you know, really see our behaviors, it would make a big change.
Speaker 4:You know, a lot of people ask me Eileen, what tools do you need to do your job? I'm like my phone. It's the same thing with CEOs. You say, oh, can I just tape your team? And at first, the first five or 10 minutes they're all on perfect behavior, and then they forget that you're taping and when I show it back to them, there's that cringe factor, exactly. So it works really well at any age and that's really important also for friends, for teams, for anyone, because anyone can be taping you at any time, whether it's work, it's not work.
Speaker 4:It's a PTA meeting. You're in a bar and you say something you know. Just you think you're being funny to your friends and if you have a public position or a work position or anything, neighbors, it can get picked up wrong. So the world has really changed in that way and if you embrace that instead of running from it, really think about you know, if other people were looking down on me. Is that who I want to be? That's another good way of really really changing your behavior. Is that who I want to be? Is that how I want to show up?
Speaker 4:I want to tell you a funny story about reflective listening, though, because, because you know I'm in the field and, um, when my daughter my daughter's older now she's 29, but when she was young, she went through that phase where you know, um, I would say, samantha, pack your bag, you pack your bag. You know they do that thing that you, samantha, go take a bath. You take a bath, right, you know, she kept on doing that to me. And there's something called respective, which is a great social work or therapy or an interview tool. I'm sure you use it as a therapist and it's a great tool where someone says I don't like the way you did that and you say, oh, you don't like the way that happened.
Speaker 4:Right, you reflect back to get more information, not to put words in their mouth, but sometimes when they hear themselves, they hear it differently. I say I said, you just said that. And they're like, oh, I did just say it. People don't always hear themselves, but when I was managing, one time this man said to me hey, I need you and I'm like you go file the forms, and he's like he took me to HR over it. I was flip, right, and I was his boss, but I was so in that head and it was fine and I apologize, but he didn't know that I was at home, you know, with my daughter and her 20 other eight-year-olds, and I'm like you go file the form because I was throwing back at him what I was hearing. So those mimicking and that reflective listening is really, you know, it's a very powerful tool that we forget to use.
Speaker 5:I was just thinking, as we were talking about this, that it would really be not fun to be on a reality TV show, because it is recorded and then you will look back on yourself and see all the things you did. Yeah, but it is funny.
Speaker 2:It's so funny how quickly you forget cameras are around. I always say that about reality TV and I know they have edits and everything but like if you have a camera following you around for a while, you really are on your best behavior for only about 10 minutes and then you just forget that they're there and you just go so free for all. Yeah, I've cussed so many times.
Speaker 4:Yeah, you start to feel comfortable. It can happen in a variety of ways. So that's a really good way to look at managing yourself. Who do I want to be? And how does that come out? Because we've all been in that position, whether at work or birthday party, even for the kids where we said something where we're like why did I say that? You know, maybe someone had a better present or a car we liked better, and we're like, well, I, you know, and you're like why was I upping them? So you have to look within yourself to what that is. But you have to.
Speaker 4:You know, I really work with people and myself to train what I call how to get out of our own way, how not to say something cringeworthy. You know where is that coming from. When in doubt, shut your mouth. I mean, that is the best advice I can give anyone, and we're taught in this world, especially women, to speak up, to use our voice. But I always go by the saying say what you mean, mean what you say, but don't say it meanly. And it's really good to shut your mouth first and reflect on what you want to say. You know you can always say it again. It might not be in the moment. It might not be at the right time, but the situation you're in is not what I like to say is your last bite at the apple, so just sit back and get some perspective.
Speaker 3:It can change everything especially what comes out of your mouth. Yeah, I love that because I feel like sometimes people want to jump in too quickly and they want to, you know, say something or feel like they have to answer something immediately, versus saying, hey, let me take a while and think about that or let me get back to you tomorrow. And I do supervision with interns and the thing that they have the most difficulty with is silence. So, just sitting in a room with a client and if they're silenced they want to jump in because they're uncomfortable, just to like fill the space and ask a question and move forward, but it's like really, you just need to sit with a silence and see what comes from that, but it's so hard, I think, for people to do.
Speaker 4:I'm so glad you said that because it reminds me of one of my favorite tools that I train people on and that is called the secret smile. Think about Mona Lisa. We do not know why Mona Lisa is smiling. We don't know what's happening under her dress. Not to get rude, we don't know anything and we don't really know right. There's been a thesis and people and you know, years of commentary Is that the first turned up smile?
Speaker 4:Is it a known smile? So I say have the secret smile. So when you're sitting quiet, have a look on your face that makes others think what are they up to? And that helps to preoccupy you. So you keep your mouth shut, but it also puts others on edge. So if you're not sure about the situation and how to respond, it's going to change the temperature of the room a little. You can get a little more information if you use that secret smile and of course we all know that it takes much less muscles to smile than it does to frown. So you present yourself better and you're gathering some vital information. So I say smile like you have a secret and be surprised what you can learn, and it helps you to sit silent.
Speaker 2:So do you just do you go into corporate businesses and speak to them, or do you spend a lot of time actually training people? And if so, how long does it take to reprogram people?
Speaker 4:not on why their team isn't gelling and that always that could be, you know, from a financial perspective, from an operational, from a new, a new project launch, and that always ends up being team behavior who's not listening, who's not paying attention. There's always some miscommunication. So I usually go in and work with the CEO and his team around a project where they've called in the accountant and they've called in this person, but they can't find that reason why it's not coming together, why the whole isn't greater than some of the parts. And then it all comes down to this. And I'm the kind of girl you know took me a long time to admit this, ladies I'm a one night stand kind of girl. I like to get in and get out. I don't like long term relationships. So most of my it's true, most of my corporate relationships, you know, are, you know, over sometimes a 10 week period, a five week period, three to five meetings. If I'm really digging into your finances and kind of how your priorities are resting, your finance doesn't have your team is following them or not might be 10 or 12 meetings. So it's a really quick thing. It's usually most of the time.
Speaker 4:One of the things about me is I'm very much a straight shooter. I say people have to want to work with a strong cup of coffee. I love coffee and I love strong coffee. And that's me I'm going to really tell you right up front. So my work engagements are usually short but I have them. People come back to me every few years when they need a cleanup.
Speaker 4:I have an incredible, incredible repeat business and actually now I'm trying to move my but now that I'm older and wiser, I'm not middle-aged just like you ladies anymore.
Speaker 4:I'm almost end of middle-aged body about how they hear people, how they manage themselves and how that impacts the whole team and that really focuses on how they contribute to the bottom line, how what they do every day. I like to say you know I'm a big coffee person, so whether they're picking the beans, roasting the beans, serving the beans or sweeping up after the beans, you have a place that's important to make that cup of coffee happen. And how do you honor that contribution and how do you honor that as being a good team member. So I mostly now speak to groups about, you know, managing yourself and teams that are gearing up for a big project. So that's usually, you know, 45 minutes an hour, maybe some breakout sessions. So that's a long answer, but there are many different ways to work with me, but I usually come in through the CEO, help the team gel, motivate them, make them cringe, make them laugh, hopefully leave them with something they'll remember and move on.
Speaker 5:I think that really, what you're talking about is something that is not just applicable to work. I mean, obviously this would be with you know, friendships, marriages, parenting. I think really, what you're saying is is kind of apply it to all aspects of your life.
Speaker 4:A hundred percent and you know that's something. I'm a social worker by training and I I I joke about it that I just, you know, do social work in the corporate setting, because it all comes down to helping people to see what they're bringing into the situation. I always use the example of we're late. That morning, whatever, you know, I spilled a cup of coffee. You know I had a problem with my car and all of a sudden I have to get to work. And we all know the story, right, the person in front of you, the red lights.
Speaker 4:The day that you're late, everyone else is taking their time. So when you show up and sometimes there's no reason, right, you're just running late when you show up, you're already hyped up, you're already annoyed and you think, wow, I got here. You're patting yourself on the back and saying, look at me, I, you know, I jumped 40 obstacles this morning and I got it done. Instead, you're already showing up, revved up. I have never seen a person that doesn't get a little road rage, that doesn't carry that on throughout the day. So you're bringing something to it and then other people are reacting to you and a lot of times you are bringing, you know, family situations into work or work situations into family. It really does go both ways. So what you're saying is really, really important and I think the important thing about what I do and why I can be a one night stand girl trying to think of something. It's just not coming off the top of my head.
Speaker 4:But you know how you like might have trouble. This is a bad example. But filling your dishwasher right, the dishes always come out dirty. You can't understand why you have the newest high power dishwasher using the top of the line, jet dry, and somehow your glasses are never clean. And then someone comes over and says, oh, just line them up this way and they will be different. And you're like, oh, that's what I wasn't doing, and now you can just do that, that's what I do. I don't have to, you know, train you on all these techniques I have to point out to you, get you to see that you know, like the glasses, they're a little fuzzy to see yourself differently or to see here's how you could handle that differently. And then most of the time people are off and running. Once they see it, they're motivated to change and they can catch themselves. And if not, I suggest therapy.
Speaker 2:Yes, but it's kind of the same. It's the same kind of thing as therapy. It's things that you don't see and you don't recognize in yourself at the time where you've been doing something the same way for such a long time and you've gotten stuck in that rut and it works. I think that's sometimes you know the thing with when you're around people like that that you're operating a certain way and it's worked for so long, so why change it? And then you kind of blame the other people coming in that they're not able to keep up or that kind of thing, and I think that's hard.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I think that's exactly on point. I'm working on a team now that's falling apart. I'm putting together an entrepreneurial weekend and behind the back they're. I'm putting together for an entrepreneurial weekend and behind the back they're all telling me well, this one's jealous of this one and this one's jealous of that one. I'm like, ok, first of all, are we in elementary school, are we? You know, let's work with professionals here. These are very well-respected people in their field. It's always, you know, they like love telling stories about the others. But I think that you know that's exactly it. It's that, especially if it's worked for us.
Speaker 4:I know that's what happened to me. I got promoted quickly. I had big teams. I always had people that really liked me and champions, but I always had fights and this and that, and it always, I want to say, ended badly because I was very lucky.
Speaker 4:I parachuted to the next thing or the next or got promoted because I was competent, but until I could really understand who I was and how, they might not think it's cute that I come in as a whirlwind. They might not think it's cute that I pick apart their plan the way I do. They might, you know, my family might not think it's cute that I pick apart their plan the way I do. They might you know, my family might not think it's okay that you know they want to help, but I have the kitchen clean while they're still sitting at the table having coffee. Right, they wanted to show my mother they were doing it. So I think it's really important to own up to yourself, who you are. And there's a really funny meme that's been going around for a while on Facebook and it's a young man and he says I spent so much time trying to avoid my parents' obvious red flags that I forgot about the small ones. And he's at the sink washing out a Ziploc bag.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that makes sense.
Speaker 4:So my entire job is for you to think about why you get triggered. Is it historical, hysterical? Is it something from your past, Like you just said, you don't even know you're doing, You've just always been doing it. Is it something you learned in a certain workplace, because that was the culture there? Is it something that's inside of you that you know? You just have anxiety and that's how you show up. So I think that once you start to realize, hey, I'm not a bad person because I do this, but I can be a better person, I can show up better, I can know who I am. It's all about knowing ourselves and honoring that then other people can. I can help other people better if I'm more relatable and I can tone down some of my obvious personality quirks. Let's call it.
Speaker 3:I love that. Do you notice any difference between the different generations, like millennials versus older people? Because I know I hear about that a lot in my practice.
Speaker 4:So just curious if that's something that comes up yeah, huge, huge differences, but I have a new theory that I'm happy to share. So, right, some of the differences are that, um, older people are used to just being told what to do and go do it, or think they know what to do and just do it. Millennials, gen Xers, whatever is below that, they want to know. Millennials, older people, baby boomers, they're thinking about what's in it. For me, that's not what they're saying. They want to understand the whole picture, the value, so they understand where they fit in. So, once that you can see that difference that we talked before about the coffee maker, right, I want to understand that after I roast the coffee, this is how it's going to be packaged, this is where it's going, this is who might use it. Then I understand what to do with the coffee. Instead of you package it, you do that and put it on the shelf Done. That doesn't really value the whole person, and I'm using the coffee as an example. But I think that's a really good way to manage any interaction with friends, family. I need this because this is what's happening before and after Give people a context so they can better help you. So I think that's the biggest difference that I see between the generations. And I'm really seeing something interesting lately, which is you know a lot of people my age, boomers and whatever came after me.
Speaker 4:You know millennials maybe they well, it's not millennials but a lot of people complain about. Well, they got trophies, they had all these trophies. They all think they're so good. It's actually the opposite. The people that got so many trophies didn't know what was real anymore. They didn't know if their contribution mattered. They didn't know if what they did really mattered. They didn't really know how to judge what was important, understand their role in a situation.
Speaker 4:We ask you to do this because this happens. We ask you to do that in a family. My daughter says it's amazing how you know. She says now you know she has her own house and she lives with a partner, how she understands, like, how to pay the bills, why we pay them on time, all the different things, why you're nice to your super, how you do this, things that you know. I explained to her why do we do this, why do we do that, what's nice, how do we prepare for things? Because that gives her in context what she has to do.
Speaker 4:That's the funny part. I think it's very funny because when one generation what's the word? When one generation is very busy criticizing another it's everything we've been talking about. They're pointing the finger at them. Well, they got trophies, they did this. Well, my generation is so busy collecting certificates and coaching degrees and things after their name to prove they're worthy, which is exactly the same thing as a trophy, right? It's the same exact thing. I can go through a program and get a degree. Do I really know what I'm doing? I can play on a soccer team and get a trophy. So I think it goes back to that finger pointing. So is that your entire defense about why you can't work with someone? For me, that's not someone I want to work with. That's not someone who's invested in my growth and actually showing me what I might not see. That was a long answer, but did that make sense? A hundred?
Speaker 5:percent.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 5:So do you feel like that that's a common problem with kind of more, because it is much easier just human nature to want to blame others for everything and have a more of a victim mentality all the time. Do you feel that that's a problem in a lot of the cases you see?
Speaker 4:You know, victim mentality is something really, really different. I think you have to really be able to separate it out from laziness, because I think they show up the same way and I think that, because of everything that's happening in the world, you know, people have become a little lazy, right? I don't know if it's worth having this job, I don't know if it's worth driving to that job, I don't know if this is going to yield me enough money, and people have learned to sit back and wait. Now I work with entrepreneurs who are anything but lazy anything but lazy and in the entrepreneurial world, that is the thing. They have to see the entire picture. They have to know, you know what my funding might be, what the idea, who else is out there? Who are my champions, who aren't? So I think that if you can tease out the laziness, there are a lot of victims out there. There are people who have that learned behavior. It's never going to work for me anyway, or you know I can do it.
Speaker 4:But I really think it's about investing in someone and not worrying about where they come from, but telling them what the expectation is and asking them to rise to the occasion, even in personal issues. Right, you know, with our own children being able to say, you know, we're having a big crowd for Thanksgiving this year. This is how I really need you to support me. And my daughter will say to me well, ma, I can't do that because this, and I'm like, well, what can you do for me? So, having the conversation instead of you know saying do this, do that, and barking at them then they don't do it, you get into it. I mean, that's kind of garden variety, but you know what I'm saying? It's really a much bigger issue about honoring the other person.
Speaker 2:What I'm hearing, eileen, is that everybody running a company should have a social work degree. Yes, Some sort of therapy degree, because I think it would make everything just so much.
Speaker 4:Well, funny, you should say that If any of you are Star Trek fans, what we know about Star Trek is Steve Jobs, who really, you know, created the phone that he credits to Star Trek. The computer Alexa's going to talk if I talk to her. You know, alexa play this and all this AI. In the second generation of Star Trek, next Generation, there are three seats on the bridge that runs the company or the ship. It's not just the captain, it's the captain, his number two, who's always operationalizing and helping him to think through, and the counselor, just what you just said, because our emotions are so important in how we help others and help ourselves and how we can contribute, so important.
Speaker 2:It's so important it really is, and I think even more in this day and age, because I think there's more of a realization nowadays that people work differently. Just like kids learn differently in school, people work differently. We all can only work from our own perspectives too, and, I think, trying to gel that. And I also feel that on teams, for the most part, everybody is in competition with each other too, and that's very hard because you know you have to work together as a team, but you also want to be the best on the team too, and it's very hard to manage all of that, and very hard for somebody who's leading that team if they're not well versed in you know human behavior and therapy and counseling how to do that the right way without affecting the team in some way.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I'm really amazed by what usually the four of you do. I've listened to quite a few of your podcasts and I love how one takes the lead and you follow up. I mean you are really modeling that incredible partnership and team behavior of. Here's my strength, here's your strength, and how do we all grow together stronger instead of, you know, a jockeying for position? And I think that when you're out there doing it in the world, hopefully people see it and they learn how to do it. But you're right, you know, being a member of a team I mean everybody that's in a relationship knows it's hard work.
Speaker 4:But the first relationship we have to be honest about is the one with ourselves. Who are? Are we really? How do we show up? And let's face it, you know people say to me so what's the chance that I'm going to be annoyed by my lover, my boyfriend, my mother, my neighbor, my coworker? And I say a hundred percent and they look at me and say you can't say that. I'm like no, I pretty much think I can. You know, look at any newspaper. Someone is going to annoy you, and not from what you think usually.
Speaker 4:So how we think about what triggers us, trigger not being a bad word. It's not someone holding a gun to your head. It's about a trigger, is a start of a reaction. So I always like to say our reactions speak louder than our actions, because we come in planning to do one thing and then the birthday cake isn't the right color or, you know, the table is set up wrong and we can go on something. Does it really matter what color the birthday cake is Right? But sometimes it does. But you know what I'm saying. But really in that moment it's the long run and we can go down a road like a bullet. That's why it's called a trigger. It starts a reaction. So the more that we can own our own behavior and know who we are and manage our annoying self, the better we can get along with other people and help them to enjoy the day and have fun and want to work with us and show up. And that's the goal right. We're part of this human race for a reason Absolutely.
Speaker 5:You made a good point. Obviously, we can all be annoying, like laugh a little more. We can all be annoying, and there's always annoying people. With all the things you've worked with, what would you say are probably the top three character traits or behaviors that you feel like people need to work on to be less annoying?
Speaker 4:So one is over-talking. I am so guilty of that right, you have such, you know, you gotta say it, you gotta say it, you gotta say it. So people over-talk and that is incredibly annoying. I think the second behavior is people don't what we were talking about before. They don't explain themselves. They say because I'm the mother, because that's the way I said it, because that's the way I want it. They don't actually even with a sentence say I'll explain it to you later. Or oh, I'm thinking this because last time I did it. That way they don't spend the time to tell someone what they're thinking.
Speaker 4:So I think a little bit of information is really important. And then I think the other one is very personal. I call them historical hysterical triggers. There's something that maybe it comes from your mother or your grandmother or your next door neighbor, an old babysitter, that triggers you and I can't say what that is. But that's why it's all about like individuals, because something you know, the same person. We've all done this right. We get a text from a friend and we send it to another friend and say should I be mad about this? What do you think of this? And they're like oh no, there's nothing wrong with it, and meanwhile you were like I can't.
Speaker 4:What are they saying that? How dare they? How dare they? So that's your personal historical hysterical trigger, your personal historical hysterical trigger. So that's why it's so important to know ourselves. And the point is so, I can't tell you what it is, but I can tell you how it shows up. Right, we show up nasty. We show up disinterested.
Speaker 3:We show up angry, we say things that give us the cringe factor. When I do couples therapy imago therapy I know you're probably familiar with that but imago therapy is, you know, you're an image and so that things that have happened in your past you bring into your present. So if you had a controlling father who called you a liar a lot, then when you get caught a liar, then suddenly that's your trigger. That's like, oh my gosh, this is the end of the world and it's not. You know. You can't kind of overcome that. So it's just little things that trigger us that we're not aware of, that have happened either in the past or like a big event in our lives that we need to be aware of moving forward so that if that happens it's not that person. You know. If someone's been cheated on and we have trust issues, it's like, well, the new person is not that person. But it's hard, you know, to kind of move forward in that way.
Speaker 4:Yeah, and I think that is so deep and that is, I think, the best kind of work we can do for ourselves and for others, because it's it's it's, you know, at this point, it's only us that's stopping ourselves from from being able to overcome that Right, especially if it's in the past, it's a behavior that we've taken. I'm writing a second book now and we're searching for a title that we've taken. I'm writing a second book now and we're searching for a title, but it's really this one is managing, annoying people. So how do you stay calm when everybody around you is I need this, I need that, and they're driving you crazy? And this book is really about. How do I see my own patterns? How do I see what I do time and time again? I'm someone that you know I.
Speaker 4:I grew up in a house with a lot of scarcity, so I'm someone that you know I, uh, I grew up in a house with a lot of scarcity, so I'm someone that you know. Every scrap of food, every pod, current pod, everything has to be saved and accounted for and I have to know where it is. And, um, my, uh, you know my, my daughter, I can drive her crazy with it. So how did I learn to let go when the delivery Chinese food comes and they have all those leftover chopsticks and mustards and so on. So you know, I had to learn to say in our house oh honey, where do you want these? We must have had a drawer, one of the biggest drawers in the kitchen, filled with all of that delivery stuff that you don't know what to do with. If I can't throw it out, I need it. I come from scarcity. I won't forget it.
Speaker 4:I'm in my daughter's kitchen and I could tell she probably practiced it in therapy. I'm like oh, where do you want the chopsticks? She goes ma I don't keep them. And I said okay and put them in the garbage. And she looked at me and she's like who are you? What have you done with my life? And those are the stories that I'm trying to get to now, because who would think that throwing? When she said, ma, I don't keep those.
Speaker 4:And I didn't talk her into saving those chopsticks and why she needs them, I said okay and threw them out, that that would bring our relationship and our trust to another level.
Speaker 4:That she would say, wow, you're really working on yourself. That has driven me crazy about you, you're, you know my entire life, so I think that it's really important to look at it and, like you just said, it's sometimes very little things that we grew up with, like the story I was giving about washing out a Ziploc bag that really can make a difference in how we relate to others and, honestly, in how we spend our time and how we spend our time. Instead of rushing around and making everything perfect, we have more time for creativity, to get on the floor and play with our children, to go visit our mothers, to help someone out. So all these kind of little ways we get stuck. They don't only annoy other people, they kind of take away from ourselves. We annoy ourselves, and that's what I'm really invested in now thinking about how you find those subtle patterns of your life, no matter where they came from. No matter where they came from 100%.
Speaker 4:Amazing.
Speaker 5:I think that's what we've always talked about is just growth. Throughout our life is really evolving, and introspection and trying to be better, because we can always be better. Every one of us can always be better. So I think it's great and I love how what you've said is really relatable to just work, life, everything, and so I think it's awesome. And but tell us the name of your book again, because I I want to order it as soon as we end tonight so thank you, it's on.
Speaker 4:It's on amazon. It's managing annoying people. It's got a bright oh here, funny, oh you would. It's a podcast but has a bright orange cover Managing Lying People and you know some of the book has so right on Amazon. So it has my favorite acronym TEAM Together. Everyone Annoys Me.
Speaker 5:I love that that's awesome. I love those. I really, really appreciate you coming and I have to tell you Ashley sent a text while we were doing this saying that she is really sorry. She had this emergency with her air conditioning and she was so sad. I love for sure, and me Same. Thank you.
Speaker 4:Thank you, ladies for not letting me annoy you, no, you did not, not at all.
Speaker 5:You were wonderful. Keep doing what you're doing. Thank you so much. Thank you, have a great night. Thank you, bye-bye. She was awesome. Oh, that was so good.
Speaker 5:Yes, makes a lot of sense though right it does looking at your own behavior and how you impact other people and I was. I was very annoying this morning with my husband and saying that as we were doing like it was really annoying earlier, he threw my routine off because I always let the dogs out. He let the dogs out like ahead of time and then I hadn't taken the puppy. I've just messed up the routine and I was. I was very frustrated. I'm like that was so stupid to like act a little annoyed over that. It's just a dumb thing.
Speaker 2:It happens, yeah, hate on the structure is changing yeah.
Speaker 3:I just it's like you were expected to go this way and then it goes that way, and then, like people are like, oh, no, it needs to go the other way, yeah, but I do think that's true. Like things from our past come up right, like in therapy, I see all the time people, things from their past come up and if they're triggered in the here and now, it's just like, oh, I don't trust anybody or I don't, like you, know anything like this. It's just different.
Speaker 2:I love how she wasn't like placing blame on it.
Speaker 5:No.
Speaker 2:You know that kind of way, like that, even when you brought up the fact of different generations and stuff that you can see, because I always feel that when I'm teaching, like because I have a huge range, it's like you have a huge range of people you see, yes, so, but I get to see the way that they work and how they, like, learn something. And everyone's always complaining. Older generations are always complaining about the younger ones and vice versa. I was like these kids are amazing. Yeah, they are With what they deal with. We didn't have to deal with what they deal with, like, their lives are so different. They amaze me what they can let roll off their backs. Scott and I get really upset about things you know that are posted or said about us. You know, and the kids just go. Why do you care?
Speaker 3:Who cares right? What are you talking about?
Speaker 2:That's said about people every day. Get over it. It's just like, yeah, it's so funny.
Speaker 3:I think the thing that I loved about her, too, is that she was like I was the annoying person, like it's not coming back. Oh, everyone was annoying me. When I was like a boss or whatever she's like, I was the annoying person.
Speaker 2:I was like oh, that makes sense. I also wish people sometimes that annoy would turn around and go listen. That's really annoying. But then my feelings would be so hurt. Oh yeah, I see I'd be like, oh God.
Speaker 3:Okay, that makes sense. Yes, I would too. I'd be like, yes, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 5:I understand. I guess it's all introspection. I mean it really is. It's always easier to blame someone else for everything, but like, okay, what part did I have in that? You know, Of course it's like be a problem solver.
Speaker 2:Just be a decent human. Like we can all be annoying, but just be a decent human.
Speaker 3:You know, yeah, don't, don't intentionally meet the cause harm. Yes.
Speaker 5:Be decently annoying. When, in doubt, shut your mouth. Oh, that's it. Cheers to that, here we go.
Speaker 1:Thank you for joining the ladies of the Middle Age-ish podcast as they journey through the ups and downs of this not young but definitely not old season of life. To hear past episodes or make suggestions for future episodes, visit www. Middleageishcom. That's www. Wwwmiddleageishcom. That's wwwmiddleageishcom. You can follow along on social media at Middle Age-ish Also, if you have a moment, to leave a review, rate and subscribe. That helps others find the show and we greatly appreciate it. Once again, thank you so much for joining us and we'll catch you in the next episode of the Middle Age-ish Podcast.
